Salon Swagger

Brie Holt (00:01)
Hey there and welcome back to salon swagger, the podcast where we talk about the real issues commission salon and spa owners face. I'm Brie And as always, I'm joined by Chandra C. How are you girl?

Chandra (00:11)
Hello, good.

Brie Holt (00:13)
Awesome. Well guys, I am so excited today because we have a truly special guest joining us. He is the co-owner of Main Attraction Salon, but he's also a third generation hairdresser and just an incredible leader in our industry, in my opinion. He's a perfect example of blending tradition and innovation and Main Attraction has been named a top 200 salon every year since 2005. With that being said, Chandra, introduce our special guest.

Chandra (00:40)
Yeah, hey Chris, I'm so excited to have you here. We are really excited to dive into your journey because you have such an amazing story to tell and I think that you will be able to inspire so many owners out there. So I would love to just dive right in. One of the coolest things I think about you is that you have this amazing history of your family of hairdressers. You come from such a long line, so.

Chandra (01:07)
I would love to hear a little bit about how growing up in this environment has influenced your career choices and what drove you into the industry from that.

Chris Knudsen (01:17)
All right. Well, first off, thanks for having me. I highly respect the both of you and it's an honor to be here on your podcast. So, and I hope this helps somebody out there who's trying to find their way in their leadership journey. I think growing up in the industry, had, I had some really influential parents. I mean, my, my mom and dad were Eric and Carol Knudsen.

They owned and operated the Aveda distribution in Wisconsin and Illinois for 25 years. They were personal friends with Horace Rechelbacher, which was the founder of Aveda. I mean, to a point that Horace was at my wedding. So my roots run deep in our industry. I mean, some of my early childhood memories were in the salon. I mean, the first time I ever remember getting sick, maybe this is TMI, but like physically sick.

I was in the salon. I don't know if it was the perm smells or not. I'm not sure. I was at every Aveda Congress, which for people that aren't in the Aveda network, are huge biannual hair conferences. Since I was a little kid, both of my parents sat on the board of Interquafir, which is a well renowned organization for our group.

So I've traveled all over. mean, when I was four years old, I was actually on stage in Hamburg at an international intercoeur fear show where my parents were doing the hair show and they were talking about the future generations of the hair industry. And they thought, well, God, let's put, you know, Chris and his brother, Alex, which is my brother on stage doing hair. So I was four years old on stage doing makeup. growing up in those kind of

shoes or in that shadow. I honestly didn't want to do anything in the hair industry. So it was everything that I'd known since I was a little kid. osmosis, I got a lot of information from it. But tangibly, I was as far away from the hair industry as a teenager as you could be. I grew my hair long just in spite. I never used hair products. And I told people what my parents did, but I just went the other way.

And it wasn't until my late 20s where I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life for us thinking, man, I mean, maybe I should take a good look at hair. And my brother got into it a couple of years before I did. And I just, dawned on me that if I even went into a good other trade, plumbing, electrical, that, you know, if I was a really good electrician, the next time somebody would need my services or hopefully never.

So I thought if I was a really good hairdresser, the next time someone's going to need my services are four to six weeks. And I love the idea that, I mean, our world is not recession proof, don't get me wrong, but in down economies, people need to get their hair done. up economies, people need to get their hair done. I every day people wash their hair. I don't care how hard you up you are, you're still going to buy shampoo, you're still going to use some sort of hair product. So to me, that idea was

I was sound and I understood in my early late twenties why my parents got so involved in it. So I went really strong into the industry, but I started the long way around. So I really didn't want to be a hairdresser. I just wanted to own a salon that had hairdressers. But I also thought that I wasn't going to be a really good leader in our industry if I didn't walk the talk.

So I decided to go to beauty school. decided to start and went through an apprenticeship program. And so I worked my way up in the salon that I now own, but I started as an assistant and then I became a teacher and then a manager and then ultimately became a co-owner with the previous second generation owners, the main attraction salon. And in 2020, my wife and I completed the rest of the purchase and now we own it outright. I mean, there's

probably a lot to unpack there, but that's honestly my kind of how I got into the industry.

Chandra (05:34)
No, I think that's amazing. I absolutely love your story. One of the things that you went off for a little bit and did a business degree in management and marketing, right? So how has something like that influenced how you're running main attraction or how has that helped you in any way?

Chris Knudsen (05:52)
So I think academic education isn't as practical as it might sound. mean, I definitely have a college degree. I graduated from the University of San Diego in 2005 with a dual major in marketing and management. And I quickly realized that that stuff wasn't as applicable as I thought it was. I mean, managing people in different industry sectors is probably very different.

I can imagine managing a set of nurses versus managing a set of warehouse workers to managing different retail workers to restaurant to, I mean, the hair industry, as we all know, is a little bit different. So, I mean, the marketing piece probably is the most applicable. But the reason I chose those degrees in college is because I really enjoyed working with people. And I think I learned more in

in college with how to work with groups of people and how to be given a really complicated task or test or how to find the resources needed to complete something. So those life skills have been really advantageous. I think we're all a little sheltered, especially nowadays. I think that most of the children growing up now don't really see the world as it is until they get out there and it's shock.

So those experiences are really helpful. I I, I've graduated and since I've gotten in the industry have taken, I mean, I don't know, I'm guessing 75 different advanced business classes that have a lot more to do with, okay, how do I deal with this? Which is why these podcasts are so powerful and why information that's shared amongst other industries and networking groups and.

other things. I think we learn a lot more from each other who are like actually in the field. And God, I mean, even think in 2010 versus 2018 versus 2020 versus 2022 versus now 2024, how different like the world of management and the HR and the sacrifices that we make as salon owners now and you know, the flexibility that we have to offer.

I mean, I was just listening to NPR on the way to work today. I mean, Boeing, I think just had to give a 38 % raise to their employees over the next five years to come back off of a seven week strike. I mean, nobody's teaching that in business college these days. So those are things you got to learn on the fly. And so I've learned more post college than I did in the four years of college for sure.

Chandra (08:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I love that that's your answer because I think that that's so true and people think they have to go to business school or they have to do all these things to be an entrepreneur or run a successful business. And I feel like nine times out of 10, it is just learning on the fly and getting that information from successful people in the industry already and applying that instead of, you know, trying to run through all those different things. So I love that. I think that's amazing. What would you say?

are some things, because I know one of the things that gravitated you to working for Maine Attraction was the owner was very industry influential leader and they had an amazing Sassoon based training program. And so what would you say are some of the key things that you learned in your early years that have helped shape who you are today as a leader in your own salon?

Chris Knudsen (09:36)
Well, let me back up a minute. I think first off, if you're new to the industry and you're looking to find a salon, the best thing that I can tell you is think about long-term what you want to achieve. Do you want to build a strong behind-the-chair business and go to work, do a really great job in your hair and then leave and not have a lot of responsibilities?

Or do you want to own your own business? Or do you have your own studio? Think about what kind of world you really want to live in and then go hunt for somebody who's got what you need. Because there's a lot of good salons out there, especially in our market. There's a lot of great salons and we're all a little kind of different. So yeah, the reason I started at Main Attraction was primarily because I was so green and I really didn't know how to do hair.

I mean, although everybody expected me to because of my family history, I really didn't know how to do it. And although I knew what my parents knew from like the business side of it, I wanted to be working with someone who was in the game now because the business and how you applied certain principles that worked 20 years ago weren't working now. And I think, you know, we always have to pivot every six months to a year. We're reevaluating our business and

how we're structuring it and are we incorporating more tech and are we going to have virtual concierge and you know, are we doing AI stuff? I mean, the world is just changing so rapidly that I think it's important that we all try to find and work underneath leadership that is present and forward thinking. And my parents, yes, were that way, but Kendall and Biazza Ong, which is the previous owners, they very much were that way too.

I learned a lot, just on the technical side of things, going through the Sassoon training that we teach now still, but I also learned a lot on the business side of things. I would challenge things constantly. mean, as a new stylist, you're always thinking that you have the answers. And so I, as a young fledgling hairdresser, we're saying, why don't we offer these, if somebody pre-books, why don't we offer 10 % in their next, like, wouldn't that move the needle? I mean, the...

profound thinking that went into whether or not you implemented just something as simple as that kind of marketing tool was impressive to me. So I mean, think about that. let's just say you offer 10 % pre-booking for everybody, you know, in, hopes that you get more. Well, really what you're doing is you're discounting the 75 % of people that were going to do it anyways. So really what you're trying to do is move the needle on the 25 % of people that aren't pre-booking. That's not the best marketing strategy. So

He challenged me in those simple ways by saying, okay, so why don't we let everybody pre-book that's going to pre-book with no discount, but why don't we take that idea and call them in two weeks? And if they don't have a future appointment, then we offer those people a discount. Then you're targeting specifically the people that you're trying to change the behavior on, not just the whole masses. You know, it's the same thing with, you know, cancellation policies and, you know, like don't bring your kids to the salon policies.

Are you punishing the people that aren't gonna violate those rules? Are you setting this tone that I don't trust you as a customer? When reality, you're just trying to impact the people that are true violators. I mean, I just, I'm a huge believer in working with and collaborating with people that are just, again, future thinking down the road and just run tight businesses.

as artistic as our industry is in order for a salon to survive everything. mean, our company is 47 years young. It was established in 1977. So yes, I'm a third generation owner, but if you think about almost the last 50 years, both the previous owners and myself have had to weather some pretty amazing storms already. And that comes with a lot of business acumen and that just is collaboration. mean, nobody's got

all the answers. I I steal best practices from you. I steal best practices from other business owners. I mean, I'm not the greatest thing ever, but I surround myself with really good people and that's what makes us all great.

Yeah, I think that's amazing. I love that. I think that's so true. So with that note, you guys took over main attraction in 2020 as sole owners, right? So with some of those challenges, what would you say were some of your biggest challenges? I know that year especially was crazy, but what would you say are some of the biggest challenges that you guys have experienced together, you and Jenny, and what are some of your biggest successes that you guys have experienced?

Chris Knudsen (14:34)
I mean, one, I don't think our challenges or successes are outliers. I mean, think most of the salons that are here to tell their story did a lot of the same things that we had to do. So and yeah, mean, full disclosure, I mean, we had owned 43 % of the business rolling into January of 2020. And we decided

based on some things that were going on with the previous owner's health to expedite our purchase, which wasn't supposed to be done actually until 2024. But we decided that it was best for the whole group to buy them out outright. so we actually signed paperwork April 1 of 2020 and funded the deal during the pandemic. We were literally in the salon, nobody in the parking lot. The only people that were driving around were probably me and our attorney. And we showed up.

with hazmat suits on and we signed paperwork and sent it off, know, deal was done. This is when we were doing Zoom meetings all virtual trying to connect our teams together. I would think the most notable change that we've experienced, and I mean, every year since 2020 has seemed like 10 years. So I don't think this podcast is long enough to go through all the things that we had to experience. But I think the one, the best outcome of

Chris Knudsen (16:00)
the pandemic was letting go of certain controls we had in the business. think, you know, the idea of being like truly flexible with your team, the idea of being truly empathetic, the idea of, you know, making it, you know, kind of almost individual, like what is it that you, what can you contribute to the business matters the most? I think those...

We went to an unlimited time off policy, for example. And that was championed not by us, but by many huge corporations. And they found out that after offering unlimited time off, people actually took less time off in the year rather than having a four to five, six week time off policy where everybody is like, well, you got to use it or lose it. And how many people are trying to burn days just to kind of meet their quota, so to speak.

I mean, we basically had a pivot and now we're unlimited time off. Our team has probably the most flexibility they've ever had with scheduling. I would never have considered pre-pandemic to let my team have off on Saturdays. Never. But like now, I mean, every other Saturday, like the team is like half, half here. So like we have rotating schedules where yes, we're busy and we're serving our clientele, but in different ways.

I think most customers are more flexible now than they once were too. So having them come in on a Wednesday at three o'clock in the afternoon isn't as much of an ask as it was before. So many people are not working from home. They just have their hair appointment as their work from home kind of day.

Brie Holt (17:47)
So one of the biggest things that we tend to combat as we are coaching salon and spa owners or as we're in the beauty industry during this day and age is that commissioned salons are dead. So our saying is commissioned salons aren't dead. They just need to get their swagger back, right? Business owners need to learn how to be more flexible. They need to learn how to run their businesses. They need to.

give their employees the things that their employees deserve. They need to have a commission structure that is going to be beneficial to the business and to the stylist, all of those amazing things. With that being said, I would like to know your opinion on the future of commission salons.

Chris Knudsen (18:29)
my opinion on the future of commission salons. I think there's always going to be a place for stylists who want a fully immersive team culture where they're given yes, flexibility. They're paid handsomely. They, but I mean, there's a lot of stylists that don't want yet to manage the liability and the inventory and the taxes and the

you know, merchant services and collecting payments for their guests and, you know, scheduling, you know, what happens when someone, you know, calls out sick. I mean, if you are a solopreneur in your own studio, I mean, all that's on you, you know, where you have the full support of us. And then two, to maximize, you know, your books. You know, we have a lot of stylists here that produce some pretty amazing numbers, but the only way they're able to do that is via a team of assistants and they're double and triple booked.

So I think if you create a world as a business owner, especially if you're commission based, that's very team focused, there's gonna be a place for you down the road. But I think it's always evolving. mean, a lot of the protocols and policies that we have in place now are because of feedback that we've solicited from our team and we've asked them what it is that you want. And I have point blank asked like,

what would be interesting to you to get out on your own? Like if you were to consider your own rental studio, like why would you want to do that versus staying here, even though they're not. But I like to open that conversation because then we can meet them where they're at and maybe even offer things that, you know, again, the other rentals opportunities, you know, can offer. Because some people really truly want like a lot of freedom. Like we gave everybody a key to the salon and they're like, what's the rules around this?

You know, they all asked us like, why did you give me a key? I'm like, well, in case you want to come in early or stay late or do someone's hair on a day that we're closed to like, well, you mean no one, I can be here alone without anybody. I'm like, yeah, as long as you turn off the lights, I don't like that's okay. So, I mean, I think literally you need to give your staff the keys to the business. and we full tilt did that. And I think since we did.

done that and given everybody keys to the salon, we've had one person come in on a day off to do it. But it's more the message that you're delivering, I think, and it's trusting your team rather than not. So I don't know exactly what it's going to look like down the road, but I do know that there'll be a place for, you know, very team centered commission based salons, you know, as long as we're around. So

Chandra (21:20)
no, I think that's awesome. That's, that's one of the biggest things we talk about with a lot of the salon owners that we coach is really creating that culture of, you know, collaboration, collaboration and that team culture. So I love that you, that you feel that same way for sure. Awesome. so one other thing that I wanted to talk to you about really quick is one thing I've always admired about you and what you do in your salon is you have an amazing training program. And so.

I would love to dive into that just a little bit and find out, you know, kind of how you run it a little bit and then what, how has your training program evolved? Cause this is something that a lot of the people that we coach are always trying to build or create or organize and all of those different things. So what are some of the things that you've done that have worked really well and what have you changed that hasn't?

Chris Knudsen (22:12)
So, yeah, so our training program is probably the single biggest reason why some people apply in our salon because they want to further their craft. And I mean, that's 100 % why I started here. And so I think it starts with how we market it and how we talk about it in the beauty schools and how we advertise for it like online and all that.

And I know that it's not for everybody. There's some people that coming out of beauty school that, you know, think that they've learned everything they need to learn in those 1500 hours or a thousand hours and they want to go on the floor next week. They're, they're probably not the type of clientele or the type of staff that we want. Cause we want people that are humble and hungry for education and want to challenge their own expertise, so to speak. We, kind of

Position our training program is getting your PhD in hair So graduate in beauty school and getting your license is table stakes, but there are kind of two ways you learn how to do really great hair one is just going through the motions and doing a thousand haircuts and a thousand colors on your own or you work underneath some leadership and They teach you at a high level. So we put our money where our mouths at with our education. I think last year we

Internally, we spent a little over 250,000 just on our staff training. So, I we have class every single week. The educators that are teaching are not with guests. That's a point of difference. Another point of difference is that their training is within their work week. So, you know, lot of salon trainings are after hours or on the weekends or, you know, work all week as an assistant and then come in later. And so it's within your work week.

So like 25, 30 % of your week is training. And then the rest of the week, yes, is like working with the salon team and kind of helping around the salon. But we definitely prioritize the education component and we're very technique driven. there's, we're not specialized. So some salons, you know, in their training program, they have just colored experts or just cutting experts. know, all of our graduates do both. So they're working through cutting and color in tandem.

which is something that I wanted personally as a hairdresser, because I wanted to have a little bit of control over the whole thing. Not that we don't share guests and color will be done by another stylist, but we're all trained to do it. But we're technique driven. So there's about 38 different cutting techniques that you have to show fluency in before you go on the floor and about 36 color techniques.

Like one of them is like a partial highlight and one of those is a one length haircut. So you can kind of tell like some of those coming out of school, you can get through very fast. So one, we're metric driven, so we're not time driven. So as once you understand the technique, whether it takes two haircuts or 10, you go on the floor. You know, our philosophy is to get things right, not fast. It doesn't serve you as a stylist to go out in the world until you're ready. So as soon as you're ready, if that's fast, great, you'll go fast. If it's slower, that's fine.

cause we don't even do a technical interview in our salon when we hire people. So some salons, they need to know like, okay, how much, you know, technical know-how do you have? And then we'll fill the gaps. We, we care a lot more about the person because we're a firm believer in the fact that we can train just about any good human to do great hair. but we can't teach a bad human to do good hair because you're going to fizzle out in the industry down the road. So,

But yeah, that's kind of our training program. So a couple of things that we've changed, you know, cause a lot of what we're up against is people get in on the floor right away. So, I mean, the average time that it takes somebody to get through our program is not very fast, about year, year and a half or so to kind of get through our full training program. But what we did is that we had, we carved out, you know, kind of an ABC or a classic component in our training program, things that you would do every day behind the chair, not your like,

one off like really wild colors or one off really wild haircuts. so we, once you finish the classic part of our training program, you actually go on the floor one day a week as a stylist, still in training one day a week. So that way it gets their feet wet and it gets them acclimated to the behind the chair timing and pricing and setting up your station and some of the other professionalism stuff that you need to kind of know. And that's been really positive. So.

By the time they actually fully graduate, they hit the ground running. And that's been probably one of the largest changes that we've kind of made. We've also kind of started treating people a little differently when they come in. I mean, full disclosure, we used to have everybody when they started, we kind of treated them as if they'd never even went to school. We're like, we're starting over. You know, like you'd have never even touched a comb. Now it's a little bit different where it's like, all right, well, let's.

Even once we get going and once we get into some of the inductions, know, like show me how we do kind of this kind of haircut or, you know, and if you kind of treat people as if they know a little bit more, you'd be surprised what they actually know. But I mean, a lot of people that start in our training program start with us because they know that they need some help technically. And we're willing to put in the work as long as they're willing to put in the work. So.

Yeah, and our training program, everybody that graduated is a prime product of it, even me included. So I always tell people that if I can do it, anybody can do it. So.

Brie Holt (28:01)
that how important do you think it is to have a specific training program in your studio? You know, we, we talked to salon owners from all over the country, really all over the world, in fact, and so many of them purchase different training programs from different places and things of that nature to where Chandra and I are really big on creating our own training programs. Yes, we can use things from other systems, correct? But we think for our culture, it's really, really important that that is just

fluid throughout the training, the onboarding, every aspect. How important do you think that is in a training program to just kind of create your own and make sure that it's your way, your culture, your words in your studio?

Chris Knudsen (28:46)
I mean, you kind of just said it, right? I mean, it's, it almost has to be your system because it's how you treat your guests. And if you want a universal client experience, you need to share with the team all the things that you've learned. So like we have a collective, you know, a hundred plus years of working experience just between the educators in the salon. We kind of button it up, put a bow on it and we're going to present it to you and

you're going to come out of the program afterwards with all of our breadth of knowledge and you're to be able to shampoo a client the same way that we do. You're going to do a consultation the same way that we do it. You're going to do a product debrief afterwards. You're going to do a proper checkout. You're going to do a proper follow-up. You're going to do a proper put in and notes in your system. So our training is a lot deeper than just the, you take a clean section? Can you

You know, do a good blow dry. Can you apply that color without putting a bleeder at the root? You know, because to me, a really good stylist is more well-rounded with the holistic process from the time that they check in. And we even back up like, how did you arrive to the salon? Are you looking the part? you? So that's all part of our training program. And I think as a business, if you don't have standards around all of those, I mean, that's that's dicey.

you know, especially because our clients are very fluid. know, there are times that, you know, they'll see me for an appointment or two and maybe based on my schedule or theirs, they'll have to come in and see somebody else. You want to have the consist. I don't want to call it like the McDonald's approach, but if you went to McDonald's in Spain, you would have a very similar bid Mac and French fries, maybe without the crap ingredients that we have kind of in America. But you know, you.

Chris Knudsen (30:38)
You want that kind of consistent experience. so that comes through our training program with how we approach hair and how we approach kind of everything. So I think it should be the foundation of everything you do. Now our spoken wheel is around our education program. So you asked how critical it is. think it is the singular most important thing to kind of dive into and create your own. And it doesn't need to be as robust as ours is. It doesn't need to be as

you know, involved or as lengthy, but, know, people that start with you want to know what is expected of them and they want to have milestones and they want to be held accountable and they want to achieve certain benchmarks. And then they want to leave the training program. Like nobody that starts with us as an assistant starts there because they want to stay an assistant forever. Well, we have a roadmap to how you get out of that by achieving certain said

things and that's great from a management perspective. It's great from an employee perspective because everybody's on the same page of what's going on and there's no miscommunication around how we're going to do it, when we're going to do it, why we're going to do it. Everybody is on the same page and that's also one of the benefits on the back end because you have a lot of in-house advocates for the program because they're all byproducts of it.

So now you get new people in the business and they're looking up at their starry stylists that they're emulating and they want to be like the Christina and the Rhonda and the Sai and all the people that we work with. And they know that they did exactly what we're asking the protege to do. And that creates culture from the bottom up and top down.

Chandra (32:31)
Yeah, no, that's exactly what we teach a lot of our salon owners that we work with. So I love that. That's just perfect. So great guest journey. Awesome. Another thing I kind of want to just touch on, it kind of goes off just a little bit, but one really cool thing that you do is you host an annual charity event every year and you've raised over $425,000 for local animal welfare in Phoenix, right? And so...

Tell us a little bit about that event, but what I'd really like to know is what impact that has had on your community and on your salon.

Chris Knudsen (33:09)
So first off, I can't take credit for the event. This is something that the previous owners, Ken Onbyata, started in 2020. I worked for them for many, many years. And the reason I got interested in main attraction and I stayed at main attraction were all the things that Ken Onbyata were doing. And one of them was this major event. And so for me, it was pretty straightforward.

Chris Knudsen (33:38)
100 % wanted to continue this kind of on. So yes, we've been single-handedly running it and to give a lot of credit where credit's due, my wife Jenny and our salon manager, Sammy, and our team do an enormous amount of effort to run this thing. I guess I participate and I help and I advocate for it, but it is a army of people that kind of get this thing up and going.

And even the beneficiary that we work with is called Pac 911 and they have a crew of volunteers that kind of help set this apart. So yeah, so what we do is every year, one day a week, we close on the salon. Actually, we used to be open on Sundays, so we had to close the salon now. We do it on Sundays still, but we have our stylist team stay back and we do haircuts for donations, but we have like a big party.

There's a DJ and vendors out front. We have three or four different rescue partners that are there with animals for live adoptions. we've actually had many, adoptions over the years, just from this event alone. Like I have a dog from the adoption. So if you don't want a dog or an animal, don't come to this because your heart will be pulled. So if you're a fan of the furry community, this is like one of the best things ever. And I also like it.

because it's, it's very non-political. you know, there's a lot of campaigns that we can choose to advocate for in the world. And, know, this one, I think is just so. Like it touches people's hearts. and it, yes, it's very emotional, but, I like it because it doesn't have any of those other like layers of sometimes problems with it. It's, is an animal rescue community. Yes. but we do a lot of work with.

dogs and even I get people like, what about the cats? So now we have cats that come and we have a cat rescue that kind of comes in there. so there are tangible benefits and then there are intangible benefits. I think the tangible benefits is that we're able to raise a lot of money for a great cause. goes, all the money that we raise goes into what they call a critical care program. So,

Chris Knudsen (35:52)
The critical care program sponsors animals throughout the year with all the different rescue partners that this company works with. So when they get a rescue partner gets an animal that needs to have a surgery before adoption, they call pack nine one one and we sponsor this. So, I mean, it's wild. The impact and the reach that we're able to have. mean, it's, think last year we were able to save like over a hundred animals, just with this,

So this fun that we're kind of doing. And these are animals that wouldn't normally get adopted. They're elderly or have severe issues or, you know, they're in the humane society and they honestly would just be euthanized if not for, you know, kind of the work that the partners are kind of doing. So, and then the intangible is just, it's such a feel good. I mean, I think the team really loves, you know, kind of giving of their time.

You know, we've been doing this a long, long time now and our team out of the work that we do in the community, this is the one thing that we all kind of come together on and give our time and our money and all of that. So that's one of the values that we have in our business, which is community. And I think most companies, if you really kind of peel back the layers, you need to kind of see how you walk the talk. You most companies say they're into communication or teamwork or

passion or education or here's what we're known for. But okay, so really what is it? A value is only as good as its ability to show up in your workplace. I mean, if we say that we're into community, what does that look like? So we had to really establish a, this looks like this for us and there's different ways to interpret it. I guess we have a lot of local vendors that we have in our retail area that are.

a part of our community, but this actually brings our community, like other family, people that are not our guests, you know, and is really altruistic in the sense that I just want you to come, I want you to support the animal world, whether you're not our customer or not, whether or not you even want to be our customer or not, just come and support this community, because it's really important. And so that, I don't know how to quantify that necessarily throughout all of the years that we've been doing this, but.

I should tell you it feels good and that's got to matter.

Brie Holt (38:22)
That connection is just amazing. The connection between community, your team, clients, everybody is just phenomenal. I love it. I think that's awesome.

Chandra (38:34)
So Chris, what, looking ahead, what are some of the goals that you have for main attraction? Like what can we expect from you and your team over the next couple of years? Do you have anything in the pipeline that you're working on?

Chris Knudsen (38:48)
You know, an interesting problem that we're going to face is our space. You know, in the last, we've been in this location since 1981 and we've never been able to successfully grow out of it. And I have a sneaky suspicion in the next year or so we are going to have too many bodies here to justify the space that we have. So.

you know, kind of the expansion conversation is happening now. How we do that and where we do that is fairly elusive. It's difficult to kind of my hand around like exactly where and how and when, you know, we will kind of do it. We will always have this space because it's what I'll call our flagship location forever. But, you know, one of the promises that we make our style or our protege is that, you know, they'll have a place to work out of, you know, I mean, we

we never would want to hire and train people for a year plus and then be like, wow, we don't have a station for you. So yeah, that is probably going to be something that we'll have to address over the next little while. And we will get creative here as long as we can with double shifting and maybe different hours. And there's some opportunities that we'll kind of have here, but that's probably something that we'll definitely need to explore.

And it just more internally, I don't know how much this would kind of impact kind of the external world, but we definitely are constantly thinking about how to innovate and like map out our client experience like a little bit more from virtual kiosks and some different AI stuff on the booking platform and like how you like experience our business before you experience it.

And we've always prioritized heavily into the human component because I think as so many companies are going hard to the right with like everything AI, I think we need to be mindful of like how we're bringing the high touch component in there too. I hate when I call a get our company and I get these, you know, press one for directions, press two for hours, press three. And then you're like, I don't remember what I was calling for. I'll deal with later. So.

I will always have a warm body to answer the phone, but you know, we have a lot of drip campaigns that are working incredibly well for us that are AI generated. We, we will establish, you know, some AI catch like on our website. And if we do miss a phone call by any chance, maybe it'd be after hours or whatnot. We've invested heavily in our online booking platform and how our engagement is with our app and

You know, I think as many customers like the human touch, they also like the convenience of not talking to somebody. And, you know, I'm a huge believer in like wanting to talk to somebody. But if you ask my wife to call a restaurant to ask how long the wait is, she wouldn't do it. She won't even go there. She's like, if I have to call or like deal with it, like I'm not, if it's not accessible online, I won't go. And so it dawned on me that there's a lot of people out there that probably are in that world. And so.

Like we need to meet those people where they're at and we need to meet the clientele that wants to call and like connect with a human as well. So, I those are a lot of things we're working on. I mean, we're going to continue to flex and put our team first. I think there's some, there's some unique client experiences that have been lost. And I think we really need to be more bespoke about how we deliver customer experiences. And I think we, for example, we have a wow program in our salon where

You know, if we've heard of somebody celebrating, going to a wedding or maybe it's something not positive, maybe the loss of, you know, loved one or loss of a pet or, you know, again, going somewhere positive, like their kids graduated from college or whatnot. You know, we have this rhythm where we have a card that's made and it's customized to them. We go to the store and get a flower and at checkout. what if, what if it was more customized to that?

You know, what if somebody told us that, you know, hey, they're going on a trip to Europe and we were able to give them like a little, you know, travel pack of hair pins and, you know, like a little, little gift bag, for them and not for pay just because it was the right thing to do. Or maybe someone is going to a, a wedding or a, you know, some sort of gala over the, you know, the holidays and you gave them like a hair rescue kit. and.

Like I just think about trying to create raving fans and how to separate myself constantly from other salons. So Shanda, you're not allowed to use this plan here. I'm just kidding. Everybody use it. Because these aren't ideas that I came up with anyways. These are all.

Brie Holt (43:45)
gonna say we actually do that in our salon we have for years so we have all kinds of stuff for brides and people traveling and things like that they're little baggies that that we order with our logo on them and it has different things for different circumstances it's amazing so yeah.

Chris Knudsen (44:01)
Yeah. And so, I mean, I think this is again, why these kinds of conversations are so helpful because, you know, best practices are good and there's a lot of good ideas out there, but it's your ability to like get the job done that I think really separates the people from, you know, the average salon owners out there. You know, these are like, are you really going to leave this call and implement a training program? Are you really going to leave this call and implement a, you know, bespoke customer gift program when they celebrate certain things and

You know, I think where the rubber meets the road is your action plan around that. And, know, you almost have to bite size it. You know, I go to conferences on a regular basis and I come back with 100 ideas. Well, my brain is like too full. I can't do all of it. So sometimes we do none of it. In reality, what we should do is pull out like the very best idea. And can we put this into motion over the next six months? Can we put this in a motion over the next year? And again, and maybe.

Maybe the timing isn't right now, but you need to pin it and kind of go back to it because this is what you're up against as a salon owner, as other people that are actually doing it. customers are savvy now. And I think with prices going up, they're expect more too. And I think the, you know, the price versus value conversation is happening over and over again, especially in our place of business.

And so I think you need to be giving customers more than what they're expecting. So price becomes irrelevant. And I think how you do that, I think is very, is very important. So we spent a lot of time talking about that. So you ask about, you know, where the future is. And to us, it's about maybe going back to some of the basic stuff. Maybe some of the things that we've forgotten that, man, why aren't we doing this retail program again? Why aren't we doing this?

you know, putting our staff first program. Why aren't we? So like those things are really important to circle back to good ideas that, know, maybe you have to tweak it a little bit to make it more current, but I don't know. That's where we're going. I spend every night thinking about that stuff. So.

Chandra (46:14)
Awesome. Yeah, I think that that's I mean you hit the nail on the head with all of that. I think that's amazing. I think that's what we're always preaching at Beauty Biz Agency as well. So definitely I love that. So Brie do you have any other questions for Chris

Brie Holt (46:30)
What are three core principles that you'd suggest for building a long lasting successful career as a salon or spa owner?

Chris Knudsen (46:44)
Three core principles to create a sustainable long lasting business.

I mean, one, I think you need to treat your business like a business, have financial responsibility.

Because without that oversight and without that sense of detail and like how you're doing your P &L and you know where money is going out and you know how is it coming back in. I mean all the good that you're doing could be for gone because you know if you're over your head and finances then you know your business won't even be there. You you will burn out physically your business will burn out.

So I think having financial awareness and running your business like a business, I think is probably the first principle that you need to get good at. I think the other one is like figure out how to market your business, you know, from a, like a, a marketing funnel, you know, how are you achieving new client business, especially if you're a commission based because I mean, that should be where some of the money that you're like earning commission on is going.

You know, you like when you have $100 come in your business, yes, you pay your team, you know, 45 % or whatever it's going to be. But you're left with 55 % and how you manage that. Some of that money needs to fill the bucket. You know, every salon is going to have a nutrition rate of customers. You know, our attrition rates about 17 % year over year of our regular customers will go on. So we need to be building our new client business more than that loss.

That's really how you sustain and grow as a business. If you can figure out how to cut that retention or attrition down and increase your retention and achieve new client, that's how you're going to really get successful. And I think that would probably be the third thing is, and it's kind of tied into all that is understanding your KPIs, you know, and coaching your team on that. Because, you know, for, I mean, yes, all of our

Chris Knudsen (49:00)
Our stylists are commission-based, but they work with us because we help them grow their business. And one of the ways that we help them grow their business is to study their numbers with them, because numbers simply tell a story. You know, if your retail numbers are up, great, you have some wonderful behaviors around that. If your retail numbers are down, you have some poor behaviors around that. If your retention numbers are down, you have poor behaviors around that. If your percentage of clients getting a chemical service are down, so...

We've mapped out, there are 13 different metrics that we measure our team by. We run the numbers every month, but I sit down every other month and I do one-on-one coaching for an hour and we go through all those with them. And we coach on people's weaknesses and we celebrate their strengths. And I think that's how we grow the individual, which ultimately is how we grow our business. So running your business like a business, understanding the marketing element of it is how to get new business in there.

and then teaching your stylists how to retain those people, retail to them, because as a business owner, I mean, it's really the production of your team that matters. So our job is to help support and coach those people, which is how we achieve our dreams. So like I went away from a salon bonus last year, and now I went into a individual bonus. I...

Yes, I said budgets at the beginning of the year and I have a vision of what I want to do as a business. But the only way that I achieve that is by helping my team achieve their goals. So again, I went away from a, if the salon hits this, you get to share like a pool of money. Now it's like, hey, if you hit these numbers, this is what you'll achieve. And as much as a team they are here in the salon, I want them to feel responsible for their own success. And that only happens when

you have a vision for them individually. And I don't set their financial goals because not everybody's motivated by money. I mean, I have a handful of, you know, people that work with us that, you know, want to work two, three days a week and they love what they do and they're passionate, great stylists and they come in and do that, but they're not going to achieve the results of somebody who works five, six days a week and grinding three stylists every other hour and doing that. So I have to coach each individual person with

Chris Knudsen (51:23)
you know, what they want to achieve out of the business. That was a big learning curve for me as a salon owner, because I was like, man, everybody wants to make a million dollars and retire at 40. you know, and especially after the pandemic, I think more and more people want peace and balance rather than, you know, what that might mean. But they're not going to burn themselves out to make an extra 10 grand a year. It's just not happening. So, but if you can create a world where they can achieve that.

Chris Knudsen (51:51)
and be seen for what it is that they do and not seen less than for what it is they do, they're going to want to contribute just that much every year. So yeah, I know I went off on a little bit tangent, but those would be the three major things that I would tell you to focus on.

Brie Holt (52:07)
I love that. think those are the three that Chandra and I stand by and that we coach people on every single day. So I agree with you a hundred percent. I really just want to thank you for sharing your journey, your insights and really your vision for Maine Attraction. I'm super excited to watch you guys and see what you do in the future. I'm sure that all of our listeners have gained so much just from your story and from your wisdom. Now, before we wrap up, do you have any final words of wisdom for everyone tuning in?

Chris Knudsen (52:35)
Keep going. You know, I think there's, there's times as a, an owner that we've all questioned whether we're doing the right thing or whether we, you know, we, we want to kind of keep the journey going, you know, cause we all say, Hey, we're, we're doing it for the people, right. And we're, you know, but I think sometimes, you know, when that's not reciprocated, feels like a lost mission maybe, or like really, why are we doing this? And

You know, there's for every, you know, it's always the 80 20 rule, right? The 20 % of bad apples kind of consume 80 % of your energy. And I always think back to just a sense of gratitude and then all the people that I do love to work with us. And I just say, keep going. You know, the, your road as an owner is going to be a little bit like a roller coaster. You're going to have great days. You're going to have bad days.

And think too, I mean, as a business owner, mean, anything that escalates to a problem falls on your plate. So like, there's a lot of times that we don't get to feel all the good stuff, you know, our management team and our leadership team, like we're spent all day putting out fires and year after year, month after month, you know, that can feel a little bit of a daunting of a task. But I think if you step back and realize the impact that you're making on

you know, the people that love you's journey, their personal life, and then also the clients that they're serving. mean, the butterfly effect is real. And if we can make one employee happy and they can make a thousand customers happy and those thousand customers can make, you know, their networks really happy. I mean, I think at the end of your career, you're going to be able to hang your hat up and be like, man, I'm really proud of what I did. And that's ultimately why I got involved in our industry. I am.

I genuinely thought that I wanted to work somewhere that could I look my kids in the eye when I retire and say, I was proud of what I did. And I think being somebody in the service industry, I think at the end of your career, you can be very proud of that. So just keep going, would be my recommendation.

Brie Holt (54:52)
I love it. think that's a great way to wrap up this episode of Salon Swagger. Huge, huge thanks to you, Chris, for sharing your story. I absolutely loved hearing it. For those of you out there listening, be sure to follow us, like and subscribe to the Salon Swagger podcast so that you don't miss an episode. Visit us at www.thebeautybizagency.com for some free resources that you can put into action immediately to level up your studio. Chandra, how do they follow us on social media?

Reach out to us on Facebook or Instagram @thebeautybizagency We would love to hear from you and if there's any episodes you would like us to do on the podcast, let us know.

Brie Holt (55:29)
Awesome. Now go out there and make some boss moves. Until next time, keep slaying those business goals with a whole lot of swagger.